How a Therapeutic Retreat Changed Jen Atkin’s Mind About Having Kids
I'm excited to announce that FWD JOY is officially launching as a podcast today! From now on, you’ll be able to listen to my interviews on Spotify and Apple Podcasts (is coming but Mercury Retrograde had other plans). The newsletter isn’t going anywhere, of course—I just wanted to make these conversations more accessible. I should have done this a while ago, but nothing happens before it’s time, right? Right.
I’m beyond grateful to kick things off with the one and only Jen Atkin. She’s been on my dream guest list since I started this newsletter. Yes, Jen’s career is legendary—she’s created iconic hairstyles for A-list celebs, built Ouai into a best-selling haircare brand, and then did it again with her hair tools company, Mane. Last year, she co-founded Highlight Artists, a full-service incubator for hairstylists and makeup artists. But what fascinates me the most is Jen's personal evolution and how she’s navigated major changes and grief in her life.
For years, she was vocal about not wanting kids. She feared motherhood would be too similar to the unspoken roles she already played for her celebrity clients—caretaker and confidant—on top of being their hairstylist. That all went out the window though after her 2019 trip to The Hoffman Process—a week-long retreat designed to help people break negative behavioral patterns, heal childhood wounds, and transform emotional trauma. There, she confronted and worked through anger and shame she hadn't realized she was still carrying from her Mormon upbringing. The experience reshaped her understanding of herself, and ultimately shifted her perspective on motherhood.
Now, Jen is fully embracing life as a working mother of two—juggling school drop-offs, Tuesday pizza nights, Saturday baking classes, and pajama Sundays while running three businesses. After losing her beloved Pacific Palisades home in the January fires, she and her family relocated to Seattle, where they’re focused on rebuilding their routines and creating a new sense of home in the wake of unimaginable loss.
Just five weeks later, in February, Jen and I connected on Zoom to talk about how losing her home has reshaped her perspective—and how the Hoffman Process transformed her relationship with work and family.
Welcome, Jen. First and foremost, how are you doing? Because I know this last month has been traumatic.
Jen: Traumatic is right. This past month has felt like five years. 2025 has just been, I'm going to say Q4 of 2024 is when shit started to hit the fan. It feels like when there's an earthquake, and you're just bracing for impact, and you go under a table or in a doorway, and you're waiting for aftershocks. It's been crazy, but I am okay. I'm really proud of myself for showing up. I took two weeks to get settled. We did evacuate, lost our house, we took the kids and the dogs up to Seattle. We're settling up there and trying to find a new normal and new routine. I've been commuting. I'm in LA right now because I'm commuting to the offices Tuesday-Thursday just to get a lot of PD [product development] and meetings and all these things squared away and just get around community and the people that I love and do what I love and that's helping me to process.
Let’s talk about preteen Jen Atkin. Who was she?
Jen: I was spunky. My mom always tells me stories about how I had to wear what I wanted to wear. I was very sure of myself from a really young age. I was adopted at birth, and I was actually chatting with Olivier [Rousteing] from Balmain yesterday about this. He's adopted as well. You feel chosen, and you feel special.
Did your love for hair come into play at that age?
Jen: So cliche, but it was definitely Barbie. I wrote about it in my book— I was a product of the eighties, I was watching a lot of TV, I loved makeover scenes in movies. I loved Troop Beverly Hills, Can't Buy Me Love, She's All That, and Mannequin. I remember loving George Michael, Madonna, and Paula Abdul. I loved what hair and makeup could do to somebody. In high school, I started cutting my own hair and cutting my friend's hair. I wanted Natalie Imbruglia's haircut from the “Torn” video. I'd get three packages of Gillette razors. I used to get cherry cola hair color and dye my hair. I also grew up in a very conservative Mormon community, so when you ask what I was like as a kid, I was very much like, this is too boring. I need bright colors.
Were your parents supportive of your interest in hair and your creativity?
Jen: I think they never thought it could be a job, and to be honest, neither did I. We have a small salon in town called United Hairlines. My mom got a haircut by the same woman for 30 years. My parents let me leave at 19, the bubble of Utah and the Mormon church, and move to LA, and they were so scared. My parents had never touched alcohol or coffee. I barely watched rated-R movies growing up. I was Disney, Disney, Disney. So, looking back, it could have gone really bad. I don't know if protected is the word, but I feel like somebody was watching over me. There was some debauchery that was had, but it could have been bad, and I was really lucky. I was always in the right place at the right time and guided to the next step and next chapter.
Did your success feel linear during your career?
Jen: So I started working as a receptionist. They asked me to be the salon manager, and I was like, oh my God, this is amazing. I got to learn business, and I got to really watch hairstylists and learn. I saw a lot of hairstylists who had a lot of clothes in their closets and not very much money in the bank. I saw a lot of people get stagnant.
I couldn't afford hair school, so I did an apprenticeship program with the Adult Occupational Center in Downtown LA, and that was amazing. Once I got my cosmetology license, I was like, the sky's the limit. I started working as an assistant. I worked at a couple of salons, then I finally got a job at Chris McMillan salon assisting Andy LaCompte, who was Madonna’s hairstylist, and he was very young and such a great mentor. I went on Madonna's tour doing the dancers’ [hair] and got to travel the world, which was life-changing for me. I was probably 26, and then I just kept assisting. My big break, I'd have to say, was doing extensions for a lot of Andy's clients, like Nicole Richie, Lindsay Lohan, and all those girls who were the It girls. It was the heyday of LA. It was the last time you could dance on tables…
Without someone taking a photo.
Jen: It was so fun. From there, I was assisting on the floor. I started working really hard, and you just pray that a publicist would come in and have a good client and they'd like how you did their hair. That was the only way to really get seen back then. So that’s what happened. I met some really great publicists—and I got to do Sofia Vergara.
She was blowing up because of Modern Family, so I got to really watch her and her work ethic and learn from her team. I just love them. I also did the shows. I met John Galliano through Lorraine Schwartz and got to go to my very first Met Ball with John. He went with Marion Cotillard, and we hit it off. A fun story is my dryer broke, and I'm sitting there using the hotel's tiny little Con Air on John Galliano for the Met. He was so sweet and so kind about it. He booked me to do his hair for the Dior shows in Shanghai and Paris.
Okay, wait, I had no idea that you did John Galliano's hair.
Jen: It was so cool. He hired me to do his hair for the fashion shows. Anna Wintour, Kate Moss backstage. It was like a movie. And while I was there, I would sneak backstage to assist Guido on any of the shows he was doing. I would just show up with my kit, and walk the walk. I'd look on the piece of paper and give a female name and would get in and just squeeze my way in and work. Guido is so incredible. We were doing McQueen shows, we were doing every single major show. That was Hair University for me. I came back to LA and I felt really confident in my skills, and I met Kim Kardashian. She saw the work that I did on Sofia. I worked with her and her sisters in 2011. We just all have kind of grown up together, and the rest is history. I've had so many milestones and big break moments, and it's unbelievable to me.
I can't even imagine how crazy your life must have been for years and years, and you have been pretty open about how you were addicted to work. What did that look like for you?
Jen: At the time, I didn't know that it was an addiction. It was a weird situation because it wasn't like I was getting off on attention. I wish I got validation in getting recognized at the airport you know what I mean? People knowing who I am because of the people I work with or any accolades, New York Times piece, all that stuff. I've grown to look back on it and feel proud of myself, but in the moment, I was just a people pleaser, taking care of everybody. My clients became my friends and my clients. We have such an intimate relationship because when you're in the glam chair day after day, you know everything about each other's lives
I feel like anyone in the stylist, makeup, or hair roles, you become also a therapist.
Jen: A thousand percent. I have put in the hours helping…
You’re like, I should have my degree.
Jen: Literally. Yes, every hairstylist in the salon knows this, too. Also, I'm in people's homes, and it’s so intimate. I was addicted to caretaking and not taking care of myself. I think being told you don't say no and you accept any opportunities that come your way, and that was “hard working.”
You also have to understand that when I was coming up, I did not know any successful female mainstream hairstylists. I didn't have a benchmark for what a female hairstylist in this industry looked like. It was a man's world. I realized I was miserable about eight years in. It was eight years of never being home, missing birthday parties, missing weddings, and not connecting with my friends the way that I wish I could have. I was tired and jet lagged and busy, busy, busy. It was also amazing. Listen, I felt bad complaining, like I'm at the Cannes Film Festival, I'm at the Met Gala, Paris Fashion Week, and it was so fun…
You wouldn't take it back.
Jen: It was everything I could have ever imagined. It wasn't sustainable. I am not happy, and I have to figure it out.
Being in this industry, no matter what position you're in, we all experience that to a certain degree. Covering events when I was at Bazaar was a way that helped me make a name for myself. I was at everything from charity galas to the store openings to whatever. I went to all the events, and I met all the people. It helped me so much in my career. But it got to a point where I am out at the very least four nights a week, and then the weekend rolls around, and I'm too tired to see my friends. Most of my closest friends don't work in fashion. And I'm like, I can't talk to anybody. I'm exhausted.
Jen: Oh my God, I hear that so deep in my soul, Chrissy. Mike, my now husband, but boyfriend at the time, would call it the Saturday Night Meltdown. I really did not want to talk to anyone. Our job is so social that I didn't have time to even listen to my own thoughts. So I feel that, and that's when I realized something was off and wrong because that wasn't my nature. I just was a shell of myself. I felt like I needed to figure it out.
Is this what led you to go to the Hoffman Process? I know you're a huge advocate for it.
Jen: Yeah, I was at a party, and Katy Perry, who I'd worked with for years, came up to me and was like, how are you? And I was honest with her. I'm like, I'm tired. I'm really just tired. I don't know what to do. I'm not super happy. And she's like, you need to go to Hoffman. I do it to people now all the time, and I realize on the other end you're like, okay, thanks. She grew up Baptist, and she knows I grew up Mormon, and she was like, I'm telling you, we feel like we have it all figured out. We left this church, left our family, and what they believe in. She's like, deep down, there's stuff still there. Just go and check it out. By the way, Chrissy, I was literally like, are you joking? I left the Mormon church. I created this amazing life for myself. I've got this great career. I have checked all the boxes. I'm independent. I don't need a man. I got this. She changed my life. It was probably a year after she said this, and it stuck with me, and I signed up.
It's a psychotherapy camp. It's five days. Honestly, it was the first time I hadn't had a phone for five days in a really long time. You do a lot of psychotherapy work, one-on-ones, group stuff. You don't have to share in the group if you don't want to. When I shed religion, I felt like I was lost at sea. I knew that being a good person was instilled in me. I had good morals. I was in a loving home. I have two great parents who gave me so much confidence and all the love, and I didn't know a bad day until I was 39. Swear to you. I just was like the Truman Show, or else I was like, everything's going to work out okay. We're all going to be okay.
So when I was at Hoffman, I was like, oh, I haven't dealt with this. There is a little bit of guilt and shame there, and I needed to learn that. The biggest thing for me when I was there was I never wanted kids. I didn't want more responsibility. I felt like working with celebrities was a sneak peek into what it was like to be a toddler mom—and I was right.
It's not about you. You're there to take care of somebody who's got strong opinions and strong feelings. You are there to support the waves of their emotions. So, I just didn't want kids. I felt like the world didn't need more people in it, yada, yada, yada. I came out of Hoffman, and I was like, I deserve to love in that way. I deserve to love a child and experience this in my lifetime. I came home, and I told my husband we need to have a baby. He was like, well, we were going to six years ago. So, that was the thing that changed for me the most. Then I think I realized that the things that I had been putting all of my energy and effort into were not loving me back anymore. It really helped me to reprioritize my life and my goals, not make it about work, and actually start living a life and creating a life for myself.
What was the most challenging part of being at Hoffman?
Jen: Tapping into any resentment that was still lingering on with my family and the way I was raised. There are some great parts about the Mormon church, don't get me wrong, but…
I'm not so informed when it comes to Mormonism, so I don't really even know what it all entails aside from being highly conservative. I did watch Big Love, but that was years ago.
Jen: Okay, highly conservative. There are multiple wives, and women are meant to dress modestly. Men hold the priesthood in the house. It's a hierarchy. Women are really meant to be there and raise children, and it was just so conservative. You're not to partake in anything that's addictive. It didn't resonate with me, and I felt like I still had a little anger about it and towards it.
I have this inner—I don't want to say it's rage—more of I have this purpose to continue to make things more equal for women and marginalized groups. I grew up with this oppression, and so while I work in Hollywood and glam, I also still feel like a responsibility to use my platform to create opportunity and to continue the efforts of fighting that oppression.
So Hoffman, for me, the hardest part was tapping into that inner anger because I was taught not to be angry ever, that it was bad. So, it really helped me to learn the tools to channel the anger and turn it into something positive. It's like 10 years of therapy in one week.
Had you been to therapy previously or been interested in any kind of personal growth?
Jen: Yes, and so we'll say it's painting a picture and then putting it away in the drawer, painting a little bit more, and putting it away in a drawer. I got to finish the picture. That's what it felt like to me. Now, I have seen over a hundred friends and family members go and tap into who we were pre-this and who we were pre-social media and get back to the basics.
Yeah, I think people don’t realize that therapy is also about trying to peel back the layers that have covered up who you are at your core. That is the true essence of who we are. Would you consider Hoffman a spiritual awakening for you?
Jen: I think it helped me to find my spirit. When I went to the church, I was like, fuck this, fuck religion. Fuck all of it. You know what I mean? And I was like, wait, there's a really beautiful part of it. Hoffman calls it your spiritual self. You do their meditation called the Quad Check, and you're dealing with your emotional side, your body, your intellect, and your spiritual self. The spiritual self is like the un-patterned you. So take Mom and Dad's patterns out. It's just who you are at your core. So, it helped me to realize that that exists still, and it will always be with me no matter what. And that's what I mean about the shame and the guilt. Even though I don't believe in the Latter-Day Saint religion, I still can be spiritual. It really helped me to find that again.
Since you've left Hoffman, what do you do to take care of the younger Jen?
Jen: I feel like my life is a movie sometimes because things just really happen in the order that they're supposed to. I went to Hoffman, and my husband and I decided let's have a baby or two, and COVID-19 hit. The emotional aspect of that was really heavy and hard in so many ways for everybody. That presidential election hit me really hard, and then cut to the kids —they brought so much joy. But we moved houses to be in a more family-friendly area of Los Angeles, and within a month of living in this house, we lost our dog in front of me to a coyote.
That broke me. When I say that was my first time really tapping into loss and sadness, I know it's a dog, but my dogs are my children. It was really hard for me. Then, I lost my father two years after that. So that was almost my dress rehearsal for the feeling of loss. But talking about inner child work, when I lost my dad, it was like that feeling when your parents would go away on vacation when you were young, and you would be scared and wonder if they're going to come back— but they're not coming back. It was that little girl that I had to show up for big time. So, as an adult, Hoffman came at the perfect time because I'm able to love in a much richer and more profound way.
I was able to show up for my kids. I was able to scale back on work. I was able to trust people at work and start really just peeling back, creating a life for myself, and also giving myself the space to grieve. And then we just lost our home in the fire. I find myself going back to a lot of the Hoffman. I mean, I saved my Hoffman books, if that tells you anything, just the writings of me figuring out mom's patterns, dad's patterns, what I want to work on, how I'm working on it. It is kind of like my own report card. Hoffman has gotten me through so many hard things in my adult life, and it's still hard. It's not like it fixed everything, but it helped to show up and self-regulate in those hard moments.
Absolutely. Let's talk about the family piece because I love that you realized that you actually wanted to have children. I think there are a lot of women who have been in your shoes and are very dedicated to their careers, love their lives, and their freedom. I'm in the same boat. I'm like, I don't really know if having children is the path for me. Take me through that.
Jen: Oh, yeah. But we had complications. Both kids are via surrogate, and Dr. Wong was so amazing and helpful, and that's also an emotional roller coaster. I'm going to be 45 next month, and my son is going to turn four. We had frozen embryos maybe six years before my son was born.
Okay, so you had a safety net.
Jen: Yeah, I'm so grateful I was able to do it. But in that whole process, I was like, if it's not meant for us, I was adopted, I'm open to adopting. I knew that there wasn’t just one path. But it's hard, Chrissy. It is hard. All those things that you're telling yourself it is a sacrifice. It is so true. I try to be really real about it without sounding too much of a pessimist, and it comes down on women in a really different way than it does men. You give up so much, and you gain so much. It's so true. You've heard it all. I think we don't share too much of it. We don't want to scare everyone who's about to get into it, but you get the gist of it.
Is it what you envisioned?
Jen: Yes. I would say, at times, it's a little bit harder than I thought it to be. Also, I don't even know how to describe it. My son walked into our room yesterday morning and goes, mommy, daddy, let's spend time together. It just is the most incredible love. It really is. I just look at his face and my daughter's face, and I'm just like, oh my God, I just want to squeeze your cheeks.
What's your favorite thing about being a mom?
Jen: I’m such a planner. So, we have pizza night on Tuesdays, and Saturday mornings, we've been going to this cooking class and ceramic class. Sunday's pajama day, where we stay in our pajamas all morning. That's the most fun for me. It's just that special family time together. Putting them to bed is the best when Mike and I have from 7:30 to 10:30/11 to just binge-watch stuff. That's great, too.
Has it been tricky for you pulling back from work so that you can dedicate more time to your family?
Jen: No, and that's how I know I'm doing what I should be doing. I love both. I am making this commute to LA from Seattle because I love the team. I love what I do. I love creating. I love marketing. I love PD [product development]. Also, the same way that I recognize that my kids are only going to be this small for so long, and I need to take every second and cherish it. I feel the same way about my brands in Sephora. I know that I'm not going to always have brands in Sephora and in Ulta. I'm still having so much fun, and I'm like, this is what I dreamed of in 2014. We're now in 2025, and I get to be here and witness it, and it is so fun. So I'm just trying to show up and really be in the moment and be present for all of it.
I love that. I remember, maybe it was when the Met Gala finally resumed post-pandemic, and you didn't go, and I remember messaging you and being like, wait, you're not there. And you're like, no, I'd rather be at home. I was like, oh yeah, she’s changed.
Jen: Yes, I have. Also, I'm only one person. I don't want to show up and be half-assed, either. I feel like, if anything, I have been really cognizant about where I'm at in my life, where I'm going next, and how do I shift it where everybody, as I said, I'm the people pleaser. And so, at the time, my assistants were like, I was just getting them ready to create their own lives and own careers, and they put in the time and the work with me when I was grinding. So that's when the agency came to be. Mary Phillips and I both have all of our amazing, brilliant old assistants and really great talents that we all believe in. So that's been really fun to watch them step up, and they're crushing it. To be able to mentor them and just watch them and do it in a way where it's not our only thing.
You know what I mean? We're not hovering over them, but we're there to help guide and shape and give them advice. They have to take care of a lot of my clients and dear friends at a really crucial time for me. So I have been able to really, it's been a win-win for everybody.
Obviously, you still have so much going on: you have Ouai, you have Mane, you have this agency. How do you continue to balance ambition with contentment?
Jen: Again, I'm super regimented in my day, and I have Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday for work. My kids are in classes doing their thing, and I now have Friday to Monday to wife and mom and friend and be the housewife I never wanted to be, but I love being, you know what I mean? I'm there in the pantry. I'm organizing things and cleaning things out. I also flourish doing that too. So this is a job. Wish it paid.
You're a homemaker!
Jen: Yes. I'm happy to be doing it all. When I'm feeling overwhelmed, I know when to tell the team. I am not happy right now. I'm not showing up for myself, but for right now, I'm doing okay. Yeah.
What does self-care look like for you emotionally, mentally, and spiritually?
Jen: Having time for myself. I've had to show up emotionally a lot over the past month. I put the kids to bed, Mike's in the other room, and it was that 11:30 PM to 12:30 AM moment for me to just sit and cry. Cry about the loss, the loss of lives, animals, and LA as we knew it. Also, process the trauma of evacuating. There was so much in that day that was just so traumatic for everybody. So, for me, showing up for myself emotionally, that's what that looks like. When I let myself just be still and quiet and cry, meditate, and visit with my dad. I'm also very much about making time for movement, whether it's a walk for dogs getting fresh air. I love Barry's Bootcamp. We've got Ouai in there. It's so exciting.
Do you know what? I don't know if you’re like this. Maybe it's a Pisces thing. Music for me is huge. Music is a thing that taps into, it's like a different frequency. When I tell you how many times I have watched Kendrick's Super Bowl—it’s not normal. Last night, I was like, guys, we're going to watch it one more time. Music for me is it. My dad played music, he played the piano, and I just always had music around. So that's how I show up spiritually. I’ll put on music and just tap into whatever I need to.
What would your younger self think about you today?
Jen: I think my younger self would be really proud of where we're at. I think my younger self is not surprised by the fact that we finally met Paula Abdul, and we got to do Gwen Stefani for the cover of Vogue. My younger self knew that was going to happen all along.
How has losing your home changed your perspective?
Jen: Without sobbing, I will tell you that the thing that is the hardest part is you do remember every day something that was special to you that was in there. I would say at the beginning of this conversation, you were talking about my accolades, the New York Times and just all these big moments. I had this, I actually got to save it, but it was a letter from my dad. There was a really great postcard that Virgil Abloh wrote me, a lot of those things from early Ouai merch, the Glossier grey sweatshirt I saved. All these things that just meant so much. I had the Kylie lip kits because Mike [her husband] took the picture of Kylie's lips for that. I had the first boxes and all these things that remind me of different parts of my career, all of the fashion invites from 2007, 2008. My backstage pass from the Madonna tour, all of the first editorials I've ever done, the Vogue cover with Gwen.
These moments that made up my life and meant so much to me are gone. It's been teaching me those things meant so much to me. They're always going to be there, they're part of my DNA, and they're part of what got me to where I am today— physically gone. So, who am I now? What's important to me? I'm not going to say, oh, it's just stuff…
I hate people who are saying that
Jen: I feel like this 25-year life I've created in LA, the physical of it's gone. It's really hard to process that, but it makes you tap into what do I have? What am I going to care about going forward? I'm not as attached. I haven't bought myself socks yet. It's a month in. It's daunting, and it feels overwhelming.
And you have very little clothing. I saw the photo of the closet…
Jen: Very little. I'm okay with it. The way that I describe it is if you've ever lost a family member, you feel this. You have to grow around the grieving, and you have to learn. You're like the world's moving on. You have to learn to self-regulate and just take care of yourself. I'm also in a group chat with our neighbors. My father-in-law is 86, he lost his home. So I can feel bad for myself—and then I get out of that, and I'm like, no, this is on a whole other level. This is everyone's loss at the same time.
The thing I can do that I have control over is try to prepare people and say that disaster does not discriminate. It will hit at any time. So, keep the things that you care about and the things that you love in a box that you can easily throw in a car, and have an escape plan. We are living in extreme weather, climate, and environment, and it's not going to get better tomorrow. So, everyone, be prepared. We see it all the time. It's shocking. I hope that I can help people to process it and try to find their light at a really, really, really hard time right now for a lot of families in LA. But I also have so much empathy.
I saw a woman in the city council meeting yesterday in Malibu who lost her home to a fire in Northern California. Now she volunteers for any sort of disaster relief in different places around the U.S. I thought, what a fucking great way of taking your pain and making something great out of it. So, if anything, the hard things in life helped me to have empathy and show up and try to encourage people to put their oxygen masks on and keep going. Even in this political climate, I know that a lot of us want to crawl under the covers and just stay there, but we have to show up for one another and keep moving forward and inspiring younger people to do the same.
I agree. I think, if anything, what's happening right now politically actually just makes me feel more fortified in my purpose and what I believe my mission is. And it's to help people in the ways that I have the power to. And that's having conversations like this or talking about mental health. I can make the calls, but I can’t change policy—so I feel good about how I know I can make a difference.
Jen: We got to show up and do our best. We got to catch our breath, but we got to show up. I grew up in a very oppressed society. I know what it looks like. I know how people feel safe in it. It's not just, and it's not fair. Nothing changes if we hide. So my house just burned down, and I've still got the fight in me.
Final question, and I know this is actually a really tough question after what we just talked about, but what is bringing you joy right now? Are you able to access joy?
Jen: I would say nature is bringing me joy. I feel very one with the animals right now because I felt my shelter, my safe place, being taken so violently. They know that. I feel just so much empathy for wildlife. That brings me joy being around it.
What else is bringing me joy right now? I'm getting there. It's the weird random moments in the day when I am not thinking about what just happened, where it's like you just forget for a while. It could be me talking to a friend on the phone about bullshit or watching a funny movie. I felt a lot of joy going to those GoFundMe accounts and continuing to help other people. The only thing getting me through this is being of service, to be able to have the brands show up, and to have, without my prompting, by the way, I saw Highlight Agency make kits for people who lost their kits in the fire. I saw Mane showing up for the Altadena girls and giving product and Ouai showed up in so many different ways and gave product and donations.
The most beautiful thing is actually watching how a community can show up for one another. And it's like, how can we do this all the time and keep this going without there having to be a tragedy?
Jen: We will. I think about when I started this brand in 2016 the political climate was nuts. I feel, if anything, more equipped and prepared, and we've seen some shit, and we show up together as a community. To go back to your question of what has it taught me, it taught me that I don't have faith in government and leadership. I have all the faith in the community, my neighbors all around me, and the people that I love and that I work with. I have faith in those people.